A transcript of President Clinton's videotaped testimony for the Tucker/McDougal trial in Little Rock, as shown on May 8, 1996
- Cross-Examination by the Prosecutor, Mr. Jahn (continued), with Introduction of Exhibits 76 and 83:

MR. JAHN: Okay. I asked you concerning the status of Whitewater Development Corporation, and as far as the trust and faith that you put in Mr. McDougal. Did Whitewater Development Corporation in 1985 have a checking account, to your knowledge?

MR. CLINTON: I don't know one way or the other. I never wrote any checks from it or received any checks from it.

MR. JAHN: Okay. That was the next question. Did you have any authority over any checking accounts that bore the name "Whitewater Development Corporation"?

MR. CLINTON: I had - we, I was a passive investor, Mr. McDougal was managing the property.

MR. JAHN: Okay. Did he ever talk to you, sir, concerning the status of their particular investments or concerning the status of the checking account in the spring of 1985?

MR. CLINTON: I don't recall any conversations with Mr. McDougal about Whitewater in 1985.

MR. JAHN: Directing your attention to March 29, sir, 1985, were you aware that the Whitewater Development Corporation checking account was overdrawn approximately $25,000?

MR. CLINTON: If it, in fact, was overdrawn, I was unaware of that.

MR. JAHN: Now, in - you indicated that in the spring of 1985, let's just go back, in the spring of 1985, did there come an occasion, sir, in which Mr. McDougal raised funds for your campaign?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir, there did.

MR. JAHN: All right. Can you tell the jury, as far as - first of all, spring of 1985 was not a campaign year, was it, sir?

MR. CLINTON: No.

MR. JAHN: Okay. What type of debt was Mr. McDougal assisting you on?

MR. CLINTON: I had been re-elected Governor in the fall of 1984, in a campaign that I was fortunate enough to win handily, I got over 60 percent of the vote, but I owed about a $100,000 when the race was over, and I was having to pay it off. And Mr. McDougal volunteered to have a fund raiser to pay a portion of the debt off.

MR. JAHN: Okay. Is it fair to say, sir, as far as a debt that is incurred and exists after a campaign, sometimes those are the hardest ones to get rid of?

MR. CLINTON: Not if you are a Governor that won with over 60 percent of the vote, it is not hard.

MR. JAHN: Okay. But as far as the assistance that Mr. McDougal gave to you, you appreciated it, did you not?

MR. CLINTON: I sure did. I appreciate everybody that contributed to my campaign.

MR. JAHN: You made a comment, in fact, during the course of your direct testimony that as a candidate, it is quite second nature to ask people for their assistance; isn't that correct?

MR. CLINTON: It is.

MR. JAHN: Either their vote, perhaps some volunteering on the campaign; is that correct, sir?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.

MR. JAHN: Perhaps putting a sign, even something as small as putting a sign up in their front yard can become something of importance to you; is that correct?

MR. CLINTON: Very important, yes.

MR. JAHN: Then, of course, money is also important; is that correct?

MR. CLINTON: It is.

MR. JAHN: And also actually physically working in the campaign, going door to door, knocking on the door and the like, that becomes very important?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir. It is.

MR. JAHN: Is it fair to say, then, as a campaign, you are asking quite a lot of people, then, "Can you help me out?"

MR. CLINTON: That's the only way you can prevail is thousands of people helping you.

MR. JAHN: All right. And in fact, because as you indicated, as your success in all your years in Arkansas, you must have asked thousands and thousands and thousands of people for their help?

MR. CLINTON: I certainly did.

MR. JAHN: Now, as far as the campaign itself is concerned, you did, in fact, attend a campaign fund raiser, it was located at Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan; is that correct?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.

MR. JAHN: And it was on April 4th, 1985; is that correct, sir?

MR. CLINTON: I don't remember the exact date, but it was in the spring of 1985 sometime.

MR. JAHN: Okay. Let me, if you can, for the purpose of refreshing your recollection only, I'm going to show you what has been marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 83, and I believe I can represent, sir, that this was your schedule for the day of April the 4th, I believe, 1985.

(Clinton reviews document.)

MR. JAHN: And to be specific, sir, does it refer, "At 4:15 Jim McDougal's fund raiser for the Governor"?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir. This is a Thursday, April 4th, 1985, and it says one of the things I did on this day was to leave the office at 4:15 to go to a fund raiser which Jim McDougal hosted.

MR. JAHN: Okay. And does that refresh your recollection, then, as far as the date of the fund raiser itself?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.

MR. JAHN: Okay. And if -

MR. CLINTON: I mean, I don't - this appears to be one of my schedules, and so - I do know it was in the spring of '85, so it probably was on April 4th.

MR. JAHN: All right. And if you would, sir, during the course of that fund raiser, did you receive contributions from - either directly or indirectly, from certain individuals that were at that fund raiser?

MR. CLINTON: Well, there were people who were there who contributed. I don't believe I received them, I don't believe they handed me the checks, but there were people there who contributed.

MR. JAHN: Mr. President, during the course of your direct examination, you were questioned concerning your relationship with Mr. Tucker back during the time in which you and he ran against each other. Do you remember that line of questioning, sir?

MR. CLINTON: I do.

MR. JAHN: And I believe you've indicated that your relationship was estranged to a certain extent during the course of that campaign, which was in 1982; is that correct?

MR. CLINTON: That's correct, sir.

MR. JAHN: Now, did it begin to improve, though, shortly thereafter?

MR. CLINTON: Well, as I said, when we discussed this before, or when I testified to this before, it was strained, but Governor Tucker, as a private citizen, continued to support the Democratic Party in Arkansas, continued to support my policies, and from time to time gave me contributions, which I very much appreciated.

So, there was a distance between us throughout the 1980s that had not been there before when we were younger and when we were very close, but as time went on, and as I said before, it got better. You know, time tends to heal those kinds of wounds.

MR. JAHN: By 1985 and 1986, sir, was there still a distance between yourself and Mr. Tucker, or had you, in fact, become closer together?

MR. CLINTON: Well, he contributed to my campaigns in the '80s a couple - at least twice that I know of, but I think it would be fair to say that we had not recovered the kind of close relationship we had when we were young men.

MR. JAHN: Had you gotten to a point, sir, where Mr. Tucker would confide in you concerning his business relationships in 1985 and 1986?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir, we had not.

MR. JAHN: Were you aware, sir, that he was doing business with Mr. McDougal during that period of time?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir, I was not.

MR. JAHN: Were you aware, sir, that he was seeking and obtaining loans from Mr. Hale during that period of time?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir, I was not.

MR. JAHN: Did he talk to you concerning his financial status during the years 1985 and 1986?

MR. CLINTON: No, he didn't.

MR. JAHN: Did he ever share with you any hopes or dreams or expectations that he had concerning his business future during the year 1985 and 1986?

MR. CLINTON: I don't believe we ever had a conversation like that.

MR. JAHN: All right. Now, as far as getting back to 1985, if you would, sir, I want to show you what has already been admitted as Government's Exhibit - I'm sorry, has this one been admitted?

MS. NANCE: What number?

MR. JAHN: 533-B, I think.

MS. NANCE: No.

MR. JAHN: I won't show you that particular check, sir. Were you aware, did Mr. McDougal ever talk to you, sir, concerning a development called Flowerwood Farms in the spring of 1985?

MR. CLINTON: I'm not aware that he did, sir. But perhaps you could help me, maybe you know something I don't know. But I have no recollection of that.

MR. JAHN: In the spring of 1985, Mr. McDougal, the documents will show, borrowed $135,000 from a Stephens Security Bank in Arkansas, a man by the name of Richard Smith made the loan. Did Mr. McDougal ever discuss with you, sir, the need to make a loan during the spring of 1985? We are talking about spring of 1985.

MR. CLINTON: No, sir.

MR. JAHN: Were you aware, or did he ever tell you, sir, that some of the proceeds from that loan were utilized to make payments or deposited in the account of Whitewater Development Corporation?

MR. CLINTON: No, he did not.

MR. JAHN: Okay. Again, back to the spring of 1985, who were you trusting as far as the management of Whitewater Development Corporation?

MR. CLINTON: As I have said repeatedly, Mr. Jahn, Mr. McDougal was managing the property and had since we first bought it.

MR. JAHN: I'm going to show you next, sir, what is marked as Government's Exhibit 76, being a Warranty Deed bearing a file stamp of the 10th day of June, 1985. And, Your Honor, we would move the introduction of Government's Exhibit 76 based upon the understanding we had concerning deeds that were filed in public - in court.

(Clinton reviews document.)

MR. JAHN: May I assume it has been admitted, Your Honor, without objection?

THE COURT: Yes, received.

MR. JAHN: Mr. President, do you need more time to look at it, sir?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir, I have looked at it.

MR. JAHN: All right. Mr. President, this Warranty Deed reflects that on the 30th day of May, 1985, James B. McDougal, as President of Whitewater Development, Incorporated, also with a signature of Susan H. McDougal, as Secretary of Whitewater Development, Incorporated, transferred certain lots, and specifically lots two, three, four, five, six, nine, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 24, 29, 30, 35, 37, 43, and 44 to an organization called the Ozark Air Services, Incorporated. Do you know who or what Ozark Air Services, Incorporated was, sir?

MR. CLINTON: I don't believe I did know that, no.

MR. JAHN: Did you know, sir, that these were the remaining unsold lots of Whitewater Development Corporation, Incorporated?

MR. CLINTON: I don't believe I knew that at the time, no.

MR. JAHN: Did Mr. McDougal consult with you, sir, prior to his transfer of the unsold lots of Whitewater Development in May of 1985?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir.

MR. JAHN: Did he ever tell you or did he tell you at that time, sir, as to what his - what he was receiving in exchange for these particular lots?

MR. CLINTON: I don't believe he did, no.

MR. JAHN: Did he ever talk to you, sir, concerning the obligations which you still, and you and Ms. Clinton still had, concerning the payments of debts in the name of Whitewater Development Corporation after 1985?

MR. CLINTON: I'm not sure I understood that question, Mr. Jahn. Would you ask it again, please?

MR. JAHN: Well, if Whitewater doesn't have any more real estate left over, where is the profit going to come from, Mr. President?

MR. CLINTON: Well, presumably, sir, the real estate contracts were accompanied by the obligation to pay certain funds into Whitewater, that was the money that was going to be used to pay the bank notes off.

MR. JAHN: Yes, sir. That's what you were going to break even on, or that's what Mr. McDougal told you?

MR. CLINTON: That's what we hoped we would. And there were a period of several years within the early '80s where, at least I assume, that we were breaking even, or we were making the bank notes, the bank payments we were supposed to be making.

MR. JAHN: Okay. And in fact, the profit that you and Ms. Clinton hoped to make was going to come from the sale of these excess lots, wasn't that a fact, sir?

MR. CLINTON: Well, by then, sir, I had pretty much given up on making a profit, I was just hoping we could break even and not lose anything else.

MR. JAHN: Well, now, Government's Exhibit 76, sir, is dated May 30th, 1985, and you still had the obligations reflected in the government's exhibits concerning the renewal of the loan which you signed in the fall of 1985. Do you remember that, sir?

MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.

MR. JAHN: Did Mr. McDougal, when you renewed that loan in the fall of 1985, did he tell you, sir, that he had, in fact, sold or transferred all of the real estate assets of Whitewater Development Corporation to Ozark Air Services, Incorporated?

MR. CLINTON: No, sir, he didn't.


BACK: Cross-Examination by the Prosecutor, Ray Jahn (continued), with introduction of Exhibits 73, 87, 89 and 91

FORWARD: Cross-Examination by the Prosecutor, Ray Jahn (continued), with introduction of Exhibits 71-B and 81