MR. JAHN: He didn't tell you about any of his plans for development of the property in the name of Whitewater Development Corporation?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir, he didn't.
MR. JAHN: Didn't tell you anything at all about his plans for the future for Lorance Heights; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: That's correct.
MR. JAHN: OK. Did he tell you, sir, that he was going to transfer assets from the name of Whitewater Development Corporation to Great Southern Land Company?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir, he didn't.
MR. JAHN: Are you familiar with the name "Great Southern Land Company," sir?
MR. CLINTON: I am now.
MR. JAHN: OK. Did you have any interest in the Great Southern Land Company in 1986?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir, I didn't.
MR. JAHN: What did you know Great Southern Land Company to be in 1986, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I don't think I knew anything about it in 1986.
MR. JAHN: OK. If you would, sir -
MR. CLINTON: I might have, I just don't remember.
MR. JAHN: All right.
MR. JAHN: If you would, sir, I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit 80, that's a check from Ms. Clinton to Great Southern Land Company.
MR. McDANIEL: Give us just a moment, counsel.
MR. JAHN: Surely.
MR. CLINTON (Reviews document) I have reviewed the document, sir.
MR. JAHN: OK. To Great Southern Land Company in December of 1978; is that correct, sir?
MR. CLINTON: Yes, that's a check that my wife signed.
MR. JAHN: OK. Do you know what Great Southern Land Company was, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I'm assuming it is a company that Jim owned, but I don't -
MR. JAHN: I'm sorry. Isn't it, in fact, a company that he was using back in 1978 at one time or another?
MR. CLINTON: That's entirely possible and I've just forgotten it, that's right.
MR. JAHN: And did he ever tell you, sir, that he intended to transfer real estate assets from Whitewater Development Corporation to his other company, Great Southern Land Company?
MR. CLINTON: I don't believe so. I certainly have no memory of it.
MR. JAHN: You indicated, sir, that you - or specifically denied having certain conversations with David Hale during the course of your testimony?
MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.
MR. JAHN: Do you remember that line of questioning? How long have you known David Hale?
MR. CLINTON: I believe I first met him, as I said, 20 years ago, perhaps a little more than 20 years ago, now.
MR. JAHN: OK. And you're not representing that you can remember each and every conversation that you had with Mr. Hale; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: No. I don't believe I've ever had any kind of a substantive conversation with him. I don't believe we've ever sat down and had a long talk about anything.
MR. JAHN: Well, but have you ever sat down and had fairly short talks with him?
MR. CLINTON: Not to my memory. But I mean, we have been in the same place, you know, on a few occasions over 20 years, so I can't remember every time I have ever seen him.
MR. JAHN: Wasn't it a fact that at one point he was the judge that handled any crimes that arose within the capital complex? Did you ever have any occasion to see him, for instance, when he was lobbying for pay raises for state judges and things like that?
MR. CLINTON: Well, if he was in the Capitol building, I might well have seen him. I was around the Capitol building, particularly during legislative sessions, I would sometimes visit committee hearings, and I saw hundreds, perhaps even a few thousand people during every legislative session.
MR. JAHN: And you're not maintaining, though, that you can remember each and every conversation that you had with Mr. Hale?
MR. CLINTON: Not at all. I wouldn't begin to say that.
MR. JAHN: And you're not maintaining, sir, that you can recall whether - what Mr. Hale's reactions were to any conversations that he may or may not have had with you, are you, sir? You're not trying to say that you are clairvoyant or anything like that, are you?
MR. CLINTON: What are you asking me, sir?
MR. JAHN: Well, I'm just asking you, there is no way that you can get in and read Mr. Hale's mind, is there?
MR. CLINTON: No. I certainly can't do that. I wouldn't presume to do that.
MR. JAHN: You are not claiming that you can know the thoughts that went on within Mr. Hale's mind at the time that he may or may not have had conversations with you; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: First of all, sir, I'm not sure I ever had a conversation with him in the Capitol, so I can't even speculate about something I'm not even sure occurred.
MR. JAHN: Well, I didn't say in the Capitol, I'm just saying any conversations. You must have had some conversation. Are you denying any conversations that you ever had with Mr. Hale at this time?
MR. CLINTON: Absolutely not. If - I knew who he was, so if I were to run into him, I'd say "Hello, how are you," but I don't recall any substantive conversation I ever had with him.
MR. JAHN: All right. And it is your testimony that you don't recall putting any pressure on Mr. Hale; is that what you said, sir?
MR. CLINTON: My testimony is that I did not put any pressure on Mr. Hale.
MR. JAHN: Yes, sir.
MR. CLINTON: That's my testimony.
MR. JAHN: And you are adamant about that, aren't you, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I am adamant about that.
MR. JAHN: So that even if there were conversations which you can recall - or which you cannot recall which occurred between yourself and Mr. Hale, you know that it was not your nature to go about trying to place pressure on individuals with whom you had associations; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: I did not have any personal business conversations with Mr. Hale.
MR. JAHN: Well, but I'm saying, as far as your adamancy as far as pressure is concerned, what is that based upon, sir?
MR. CLINTON: Based upon the fact that it didn't happen, sir.
MR. JAHN: Well, is it based upon your recollection of all of your conversations with Mr. Hale?
MR. CLINTON: It's based on the fact that I know that I never pressured David Hale to make a loan, just like I never ran in my jogging shorts out to 145th Street to see him in the cold. I know that I never did that. What he - it is not true that that happened, sir. It did not happen.
MR. JAHN: Did you ever jog directly to Mr. McDougal's office space, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I don't believe I ever jogged directly there, sir, but I - it was - as I testified earlier, Mr. McDougal's office in downtown Little Rock was on Main Street. I never jogged to any of his real estate offices, and certainly not to 145th Street, which was 12 miles or so, or 10 miles or something from downtown Little Rock.
MR. JAHN: I don't know why you would want to change the question, Mr. President.
MR. HEUER: Your Honor, again -
MR. JAHN: The question is, did you ever jog to Mr. McDougal's office space?
MR. HEUER: I'm going to object to the argument by counsel.
MR. JAHN: Have you ruled, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Was that responsive to your question?
MR. JAHN: The answer that the president gave? I will be more than happy to clarify, if he doesn't understand, Your Honor. I will be more than happy to rephrase.
THE COURT: Rephrase it.
MR. JAHN: Where was the Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan office space, sir?
MR. CLINTON: As I testified, sir, it was on Main Street, less than a mile from the governor's mansion.
MR. JAHN: And you didn't even need to jog, you could stroll from the mansion to Mr. McDougal's office space, could you not, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I could.
MR. JAHN: And, in fact, during 1985 and 1986, there were a number of occasions in which you basically just got in your car and drove around to various areas; isn't that correct, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I don't know that that's true.
MR. JAHN: Well, as far as reports - was there a Lincoln assigned to the mansion, sir?
MR. CLINTON: The governor had a Lincoln, yes.
MR. JAHN: Yes, sir. I believe the line of questioning, Mr. President, was, it was not far from the mansion to Mr. McDougal's office, was it, sir?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir. And I've already testified that I often jogged by there, and that on one or two occasions, I actually went in. I've already testified to that effect a few hours ago.
MR. JAHN: So, there would be nothing, then, to prevent you from either jogging, walking, or driving from the mansion to Mr. McDougal's office, is there, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I could go to Mr. McDougal's office whenever I wished.
MR. JAHN: That's right. And then there would be nothing that would prevent you from getting in Mr. McDougal's car and driving anywhere where you wanted to, was there, sir?
MR. CLINTON: That would be highly unusual.
MR. JAHN: Well, I'm asking you, sir, was there anything that would prevent you from doing it?
MR. CLINTON: I don't recall ever doing it.
MR. JAHN: Well, but sir, but I'm asking you, if you would, sir, the question is, was there anything that would prevent you from doing it?
MR. CLINTON: I wouldn't do that unless there was some reason to do it, and I know of no reason why I ever did it.
MR. JAHN: Mr. President, if you would, sir, the question is, was there anything that would prevent you from doing it?
MR. CLINTON: Yes, there is something that would prevent me from doing it. If I were - if I had jogged by there and I were unaccompanied by the state trooper and he was going to drive me some place besides drive me home so that there wouldn't be the state trooper behind us going wherever we were going, then I wouldn't get in the car, I don't think, and go anywhere with him.
MR. JAHN: You just threw up a reason why you couldn't. But is there anything that, under normal circumstances, would prevent you from either walking, jogging, or driving over to Mr. McDougal's place of business, getting in his car, and driving any place you wanted to?
MR. McDANIEL: Objection, Your Honor, it has been asked and answered now three times.
MR. JAHN: Your Honor, I submit it has -
MR. CLINTON: I must not understand the question.
MR. JAHN: OK.
MR. CLINTON: If you want to ask me about a specific example and if something happened, I will be glad to answer that. I have told you that I frequently ran on Main Street. On a couple of occasions, I went in to Mr. McDougal's office at the savings and loan. I felt free to see him whenever I wished to. Now, I don't know how else to answer your question. I have no recollection of riding anywhere in a car with him. If you think that there is a time when I did that or you want to ask me about it, sir, I will be glad to try to answer it, but I'm doing my best to tell you the truth, and all you're asking me to do is speculate.
MR. JAHN: No, sir. All I'm asking you to do is to admit to the jury, sir, that there is no physical law, no spiritual law, no inconsistency that would prevent you from getting in Mr. McDougal's car and driving anywhere that you wanted to back in 1985 and 1986. That's all I'm asking you.
MR. CLINTON: Well, and I explained to you what the facts were, what my practice was. I explained to you what my practice was. Could I physically do it without anyone restraining me? Yes, I could have done that.
MR. JAHN: OK.
MR. CLINTON: Was it my practice to do it? The answer to that is no.
MR. JAHN: So, the answer is, there was no reason why you couldn't have done it, as far as no physical prevention, no moral prevention, no logical prevention that would have prevented you from having done it; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: There was a logical reason not to do it.
MR. JAHN: All right.
MR. CLINTON: Depending on where we were going. But nobody - I wasn't in handcuffs and chains, if that's what you are asking. No, I could have physically done it.
MR. JAHN: Is there a reason that you didn't want to answer that question?
MR. CLINTON: I didn't understand it.
MR. JAHN: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. CLINTON: I still don't.
MR. JAHN: If I don't make myself clear, please feel free to speak up. You've talked about jogging past Mr. McDougal's office. You're aware, sir, are you not, that Mr. McDougal has a recollection concerning an occasion in which you jogged past his office and had a conversation concerning Ms. Clinton?
MR. CLINTON: I am aware of that.
MR. JAHN: Are you aware of that?
MR. CLINTON: Yes, I am.
MR. JAHN: And you are aware, sir, that Mr. McDougal has a recollection of an event in which you jogged by and asked Mr. McDougal to place Ms. Clinton's law firm on a retainer. Do you remember that, sir? I'm saying, do you remember that that's one of Mr. McDougal's recollections?
MR. CLINTON: I remember that - I am now aware that Mr. McDougal remembers that I asked - I believe he has testified that he thought I asked him to give Hillary some law business. I don't know about a retainer.
MR. JAHN: And you're now aware that Mr. McDougal remembers that event occurring and you don't remember it; is that correct, sir?
MR. CLINTON: I remember going in to see him. I do not remember asking him to do that, no.
MR. JAHN: OK. But you don't recall asking him to place Ms. Clinton on a retainer; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: I do not, no.
MR. JAHN: You don't recall - do you recall asking him to give her a specific amount per month in reference to that retainer?
MR. CLINTON: No, I don't.
MR. JAHN: Do you recall any - you say you remember going in to see him. Do you remember going in to see him and discussing Ms. Clinton and law business for Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan?
MR. CLINTON: I do not.
MR. JAHN: Is there any - I just want to make sure I'm asking you the right question, I'm not asking you a question that you don't understand. Is there any combination of facts that I can ask you that comes anywhere close to what Mr. McDougal recalls as far as that particular conversation is concerned?
MR. CLINTON: Well, I don't remember the specific request. You know, we spoke in passing about a lot of things over the years. I don't know whether he asked me, "How is Hillary doing?" "How are we doing?" I'm just answering the question as I know it. I do not remember making that specific request.
MR. JAHN: Do you remember the question, sir?
MR. CLINTON: No.
MR. JAHN: Will you at least concede, sir, that it is human nature that individuals remember events said differently from each other?
MR. CLINTON: Depends on the significance of the events and how long ago they occurred. But obviously people's memory of specific things are different as time passes.
MR. JAHN: OK.
MR. CLINTON: Particularly if they are not especially important to them.
MR. JAHN: OK. And if they are especially important, there are occasions in which individuals can remember, even on important issues, can remember conversations differently, one remembering it one way and one remembering it another. Isn't that a fair statement, sir?
MR. CLINTON: Your definition of "important" and mine might be different. I think there are some times when people have different memories of exactly what was said, and both of them are doing their best to tell the truth.
MR. JAHN: That's correct. And those events occur whether it is important or unimportant. You're the one that injected unimportant. I'm just trying to point out that those differences occur whether it is important or unimportant; isn't that correct?
MR. CLINTON: Some things stick in your memory more than others, that's right, Mr. Jahn.
MR. JAHN: That's correct. And sometimes it is a direct function of time. You can remember something which occurred yesterday but you can't remember something that occurred a year ago and vice versa; isn't that correct, sir?
MR. CLINTON: Yes, sir.
MR. JAHN: All right. And you're not saying that Mr. McDougal is necessarily wrong concerning his recollection of the event, are you, sir?
MR. CLINTON: No. All I'm saying is what I remember. That's all I can do.
MR. JAHN: OK. And as of now, sir, you cannot remember having a conversation with Mr. Hale concerning how Master Marketing was going to be funded; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: I can remember that I never had such a conversation.
MR. JAHN: Well, you can remember specifically that you never had that conversation?
MR. CLINTON: I never had that conversation.
MR. JAHN: OK. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. McDougal concerning how Whitewater Development Corporation was going to be funded in 1986, sir?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir.
MR. JAHN: Did you ever have any conversation with Susan McDougal concerning how Master Marketing funds were going to be spent in 1986?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir.
MR. JAHN: And those conversations you also specifically recall; is that correct?
MR. CLINTON: No.
MR. JAHN: Or the lack of those conversations?
MR. CLINTON: No, there were no such conversations.
FORWARD: Cross-Examination by the Prosecutor, Ray Jahn (concluded)