THE COURT: Mr. Collins or Mr. Brown?
MR. COLLINS: Mr. Brown, Your Honor.
MR. BROWN (attorney for Jim Guy Tucker): Thank you, Your Honor. If the Court pleases, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, and Mr. President.
MR. CLINTON: Mr. Brown.
MR. BROWN: I will try to be as brief as I can and as precise as I can in asking you these questions. If I am unclear, please ask me to repeat the question.
Mr. President, do you know Jim Guy Tucker?
MR. CLINTON: I do.
MR. BROWN: And when did you first meet Jim Guy Tucker, Governor Tucker?
MR. CLINTON: I believe I met the governor almost 30 years ago here in Washington. I believe the first time I ever met him was in Senator Fulbright's office in the late '60s, and if my memory is correct, I believe that he had finished Harvard and was on his way to Vietnam as a war correspondent, or had just come back from Vietnam. And of course, after that, he went home to Arkansas, and then after I finished law school, I did, so I have known him ever since then. But I believe that's the first time I met him.
MR. BROWN: All right. Can you describe your relationship with Governor Tucker over the years?
MR. CLINTON: Well, it has changed a little from time to time.
MR. BROWN: All right. I'll get you to tell us about that?
MR. CLINTON: When I - first of all, I was very impressed with him when I first met him, and I liked him. But then he went home to Arkansas and I went - I went away, I lived in England for a couple of years and I went to law school. But while I was in law school, he was elected to prosecutor for Pulaski County. And then when I came home and made my race for Congress in 1974, that was the same year Mr. Tucker ran for attorney general.
After he was elected attorney general and I was defeated for Congress and went back to teaching in the Arkansas Law School, he asked me to prepare for him an anti-trust brief on an issue involving the banking and interest rates in Arkansas that he wanted to file on behalf of our state before the U.S. Supreme Court. I prepared that brief, and in the course of doing it, had a lot more contact with him, and we became better friends.
In 1975, late '75, when Hillary and I were married, we had a private wedding ceremony, but we had a larger party that night, and I invited Jim Guy to the party and I remember he flew up there to the party. Then in 1976, there was an opening for Congress in Little Rock, he ran for that job and got elected, and I ran for his job, I became attorney general. And again, we had a good relationship.
And in 1978, when he ran for the United States Senate after the death of Senator McClellan, along with Senator Pryor and Congressman Thornton, I ran for the governorship, and I was elected governor. He lost the Senate race, and he basically devoted himself after that, nearly as I could tell, to his own business interests and his law practice. So, I didn't see him so much then, but we were still friendly.
Then in 1982, after I was defeated for governor in 1980, I ran for re-election in '82 in a very crowded Democratic primary field which included Governor Tucker. So, we ran against each other for the first and, thank goodness, the only time in our careers. It was a very difficult, very heated race, and it left some hard feelings. I was lucky enough to win it. But we were sort of estranged after that.
Although I always respected the way he handled it, he continued to support the Democratic Party, he continued to stand up for the things that I believed in, and from time to time, he even made contributions to my campaign. But we weren't really close. It got a little better as time went on, you know, time often heals some of those wounds, it got a little better.
MR. BROWN: I understand.
MR. CLINTON: Then in 1990, there was another brief period of tension, because Governor Tucker was considering running for governor and I was considering running for re-election. As it turned out, I ran for re-election, he ran for lieutenant governor, and we began to serve together. In my view, he had a hard job, because when I started running for president, under the Arkansas constitution, he is the governor, the lieutenant governor is the governor with all the powers of the office. So, I have had a cordial relationship with him since then.
MR. BROWN: Now, Mr. President, understanding your relationship historically with Governor Tucker, particularly as it related to the political aspects of it, have you ever had any business relationships with Governor Tucker?
MR. CLINTON: No, Mr. Brown, I never have.
MR. BROWN: Now, let me focus, if you will, in the year 1985 and 1986. Were you ever aware that David Hale, in fact, had a company called Capital Management Systems? Were you ever made aware of that, Capital Management System -
MR. CLINTON: I don't know.
MR. HEUER: Services.
MR. BROWN: Services, excuse me, I'm sorry, Services.
MR. CLINTON: I don't know. My guess is that I did not know that he had a company by that exact name.
MR. BROWN: All right.
MR. CLINTON: I knew that David - I want to make a full disclosure here.
MR. BROWN: Okay.
MR. CLINTON: I believe I knew that David Hale had a business of some kind, or was in business, as well as being a municipal judge, but I don't believe I knew that was the name of his company or what that company was, exactly.
MR. BROWN: Well, apparently I had some problems repeating the name of that company, too. But it is Capital Management Services. Let me ask you this question: Did you ever request David Hale or any of his companies to make a loan to or for the benefit of Governor Tucker, to the best of your knowledge?
MR. CLINTON: I did not.
MR. BROWN: Are you aware of whether or not there was ever any agreement of any kind involving Governor Tucker, David Hale and Jim McDougal which concerned the making of loans for the mutual benefit of these persons or other persons?
MR. CLINTON: If there ever was such an agreement, I had no awareness of it.
MR. BROWN: Are you aware of whether or not there was ever any agreement of any kind involving Governor Tucker and David Hale through any of his companies which had the intent of increasing the capital of David Hale's small business investment company or any company that he might have been associated with?
MR. CLINTON: If there was an agreement like that, I didn't know anything about it.
MR. BROWN: Did Governor Tucker ever ask you to do anything at any time to help him obtain loans from David Hale or any of his companies?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir, he did not ever ask for that kind of help.
MR. BROWN: Did he ever ask you to do anything at any time to help obtain loans for any of Governor Tucker's companies?
MR. CLINTON: No.
MR. BROWN: All right. And I guess this question has been asked, but since we represent different individuals, I need to ask you this question as it relates to Governor Tucker.
MR. BROWN: Did you ever pressure David Hale to do anything at any time to benefit - or for the benefit of Governor Jim Guy Tucker?
MR. CLINTON: I did not.
MR. BROWN: In late 1985 and early 1986, were you aware of whether or not there was ever any agreement involving Governor Tucker and David Hale and Jim McDougal involving Madison Guaranty loans in exchange for loans from David Hale's company, CMS, that we have referred to?
MR. CLINTON: I was aware of no such agreement. I did not -
MR. BROWN: Did you ever have - excuse me.
MR. CLINTON: I want to make sure I made myself clear.
MR. BROWN: All right.
MR. CLINTON: I was not aware of that agreement if, in fact, it existed. If there was an agreement, I knew nothing about it.
MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, did you ever have any conversation with Governor Tucker, in which he informed you that he would be arranging a loan through Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan which would enable David Hale to make loans to various other people?
MR. CLINTON: No, sir, I never did.
MR. BROWN: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
MR. CLINTON: Thank you.
FORWARD: Questioned by Bobby McDaniel, attorney for Susan McDougal